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Agile Armor vs Bloodthread Armor - Wizards Community
At first, I thought that Agile Armor was breaking new ground in power, but then reading through the PHB again I noticed Bloodthread Armor, which has rather similar effects, but is restricted to Cloth armor.
Obviously Agile Armor is much stronger than Bloodthread Armor, or even Trollhide Armor, but what I'm now wondering is if I'm perhaps underestimating some of these armors.
How strong are they relative to Agile Armor?
As far as I've been able to calculate, Agile Armor prevents about 99 damage on the day at epic if you get attacked 5 times per combat;
If you're attacked 10 times per combat, its twice that.
Trollhide, conversely, is regenerating you about 70-80 hp, though to be fair after the combat it heals you to maximum hp.
So how much "too good" is Agile Armor?
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Agile Armor is (for fighters/paladins with a decent DEX) a great armor choice.
There are a few other armors which are nearly so good: Bloodiron for example (for the fighters without DEX).
To your math: It depends (as always) on the situation...
But I would take Agile Armor rather than trollhide.
For the same reason I would take Goldplate Armor (Masterwork) rather than Tarrasque plate armor (Masterwork).
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Quote: : Dragon At first, I thought that Agile Armor was breaking new ground in power, but then reading through the PHB again I noticed Bloodthread Armor, which has rather similar effects, but is restricted to Cloth armor.
Obviously Agile Armor is much stronger than Bloodthread Armor, or even Trollhide Armor, but what I'm now wondering is if I'm perhaps underestimating some of these armors.
How strong are they relative to Agile Armor?
As far as I've been able to calculate, Agile Armor prevents about 99 damage on the day at epic if you get attacked 5 times per combat;
If you're attacked 10 times per combat, its twice that.
Trollhide, conversely, is regenerating you about 70-80 hp, though to be fair after the combat it heals you to maximum hp.
So how much "too good" is Agile Armor?
I noticed Bloodthread's awesome a while back.
As you pointed out though, it's only on cloth armor, which is why it kind of sucks.
Even Wizards will pay out the 1 feat required to get Leather, which comes with a +2 to AC permanently, in addition to being able to get a different armor enhancement (which could be much cheaper as well)
I think Agile Armor is quite good, but it's best on those that have extremely high AC already.
Displacer gives ridiculously good defense for 1 encounter at the cost of a magic item daily and Meliorating Armor may be able to be broken hilariously.
Something to remember is that damage is not the entirety of the effects placed upon you, and that higher AC prevents some of those as well.
Also, the amount of damage it prevents (number-wise) is somewhat misleading, as you can more confidently attract more of the attacks against defenses that are better.
(provoke OAs whenever it'd be even slightly convenient, pull all of the AC-targetting or ranged enemies towards you with Come and Get It and tank them, etc.)
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Quote: : I noticed Bloodthread's awesome a while back.
As you pointed out though, it's only on cloth armor, which is why it kind of sucks.
Even Wizards will pay out the 1 feat required to get Leather, which comes with a +2 to AC permanently, in addition to being able to get a different armor enhancement (which could be much cheaper as well) Pretty much.
And really, the only reason NOT to get leather armor proficiency is to use the REALLY good cloth armors with offensive powers which are highly unique.
Quote: : I think Agile Armor is quite good, but it's best on those that have extremely high AC already.
Displacer gives ridiculously good defense for 1 encounter at the cost of a magic item daily and Meliorating Armor may be able to be broken hilariously.
Displacer Armor is really potent as a "you aren't going to hit me this encounter" armor, giving a very large (if temporary) boost.
Meliorating Armor is very interesting because its power is very campaign dependent;
In a campaign wherein virtually all adventures are about 5 encounters long, its decent, and if they often stretch on for 7, its quite nasty by the end.
The problem with it is that those once per day encounters are absolutely killer for it.
I've actually noticed a few very interesting armors.
The problem is that primarily it is a bit difficult to compare some of them.
Agile Armor, for instance, may prevent ludicris amounts of damage for a day when compared to trollhide, but is worthless against non-AC attacks, whereas trollhide is equally effective against all sorts of attacks.
Displacer Armor is amazing for one encounter per day, and then is otherwise useless.
Something like Deflection Armor seems terrible by comparison, but against an instant-death or stun attack, it can completely turn a battle around singlehandedly.
The problem is that some of them may well be massively better than others, and Agile Armor is somewhat problematic in that regard, but it is difficult to tell definitively whether it is too good because it is so difficult to compare sometimes - trollhide will heal for your maximum hit points, so you could be gaining as much as 300 hp on the day with it from an 8 round encounter plus healing 220 hit points out of your 232 or so.
Is healing that many hit points better than preventing 200 damage on the day?
That's not really an easy thing to compare.
And then Deflection Armor is amazing for one combat, making you very tough indeed, but giving you no benefit at all otherwise - is it better to nova, or better to have a solid static boost all the time?
Quote: : Something to remember is that damage is not the entirety of the effects placed upon you, and that higher AC prevents some of those as well.
Also, the amount of damage it prevents (number-wise) is somewhat misleading, as you can more confidently attract more of the attacks against defenses that are better.
(provoke OAs whenever it'd be even slightly convenient, pull all of the AC-targetting or ranged enemies towards you with Come and Get It and tank them, etc.) Indeed.
Though it also depends on how much damage you're eating and what you're fighting.
Someone wearing Agile Godplate could have an AC in the low 50s;
A level 30 skirmisher has a +35 attack bonus in theory, which means they need a 16 to hit AC 51 - and brutes could need 18s, and underlevel monsters may be unable to hit you at all, or nearly so.
As such, the "while not bloodied" thing is almost a joke versus those enemies.
On the other hand, enemies who don't target your AC don't care at all, and given enough of them Agile Armor is a joke because it does nothing and the AC-targeting enemies get to target your real AC oftentimes anyway because you take so much damage from their fireballs.
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I believe AV has made such comparisons moot - there's virtually an armor for any opportunity that might present itself in combat - and it will mostly depend on your groups playstyle which is really better.
more likely, you'll have to state "an optimized xxx will have one of those 6 armors: "...
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Where is agile armor?
I don't see it in my PLayer's Handbook or in the D&Di Compendium.
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Quote: : Where is agile armor?
I don't see it in my PLayer's Handbook or in the D&Di Compendium.
The new Adventurers's Vault.
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Quote: : The new Adventurers's Vault.
What does it do?
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Quote: : What does it do?
Lets you add your Dex to AC while using heavy armor (up to a certain amount)
Heroic: +1.
Paragon: +2.
Epic: +3.
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Quote: : Lets you add your Dex to AC while using heavy armor (up to a certain amount)
Heroic: +1.
Paragon: +2.
Epic: +3.
It's a shame most classes that use Heavy Armor don't have Dexterity as a Primary, Secondary, or often, even a Tertiary stat.
Still it's good for those willing to eek out a little extra AC by building around it.
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Many heavy blade melee builds will go up to 17 dex by paragon for the Heavy Blade Mastery Feat.
So I wouldn't say its a shame at all.
Rangers, Fighters, Warlords and Paladins would chomp on this with relish.
Melee Cleric might like this as well.
Theziner
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Quote: : Many heavy blade melee builds will go up to 17 dex by paragon for the Heavy Blade Mastery Feat.
So I wouldn't say its a shame at all.
Rangers, Fighters, Warlords and Paladins would chomp on this with relish.
Melee Cleric might like this as well.
Theziner Rangers would pick Veteran's Armor IMHO.
Offense trumps defense in that regard.
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Quote: : ...more likely, you'll have to state "an optimized xxx will have one of those 6 armors: "...
This is a good thing, if you ask me.
Means you have a better chance at landing arguably optimized gear merely by chance, and thus a better chance at not having to make it yourself.
Plus it means there's a better chance a "non-optimized" character will luck out.
Well, kind of.
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I don't think its clear at all that some armors are not massively better than others, its just difficult to compare them in a decent manner.
How good is trollskin armor relative to agile armor?
Its a difficult comparison.
One gives you a large boost in one encounter, and heals you up to full after the encounter ends;
The other gives you a not-inconsiderable AC boost all day long, preventing as much damage overall as the trollskin is likely to heal, but in a more spread-out way.
This doesn't mean that one of them isn't better than the other, but that it is hard to compare them.
Incidentally, I think the real problem with Veteran's Armor isn't wearing it, as it isn't that amazing as worn armor, but rather people just lugging around five suits of +1 Veteran's Armor so they can convert all their excess AP into Dailies between battles.
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I would love this armor on a pit-fighter ranger
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Quote: : Dragon I don't think its clear at all that some armors are not massively better than others, its just difficult to compare them in a decent manner.
How good is trollskin armor relative to agile armor?
Its a difficult comparison.
One gives you a large boost in one encounter, and heals you up to full after the encounter ends;
The other gives you a not-inconsiderable AC boost all day long, preventing as much damage overall as the trollskin is likely to heal, but in a more spread-out way.
This doesn't mean that one of them isn't better than the other, but that it is hard to compare them.
I actually think that Hydra Armor is better than Trollskin, though it can't be put on hide (which likely won't really matter for those choosing between Agile Armor and this.) The biggest problem is the inability to choose when you get the benefits, but when you do it doesn't cost a magic item daily and gives you the same or a better effect (doesn't go away with going <
0 or fire/acid damage) with a lower level item.
It can also trigger multiple times per day (and it likely will on a Defender.)
Personally, I actually think that Soulforged Armor is the best armor for a Defender with a good amount of healing available for the party.
It not only prevents sudden unconsciousness/death, it also potentially gives you a large amount of extra healing.
All damage beyond 0 is completely ignored when they receive healing, so you could effectively fight from any place you gain even 1 hp/round and survive indefinitely.
(Consecrated Ground is a good example of this) It might even be a good strategy to start off encounters at low health to gain the benefits of this, as long as you have easy ways to access healing multiple times (the amount doesn't matter, it's only the number of times it can be given)
Some particularly good ways of optimizing this idea include having these powers available to the party: (doesn't spend healing surges)
Cleric:
Dailies
1) Consecrated Ground - works for an entire encounter
2) Purifying Fire - likely to work for quite a bit of time if you have a decent number of targets, and he can simply move to another target (OAs don't matter if he needs the healing, as it'll all go away when he gets any healing anyway)
3) If Radiant Servant, Healing Sun works for likely for ~entire encounter.
Encounters
1) Inspiring Strike - 15 + Cha healing if you hit (otherwise simply use Healing Word)
2) Sunburst - 10 + Cha healing (to everyone in a burst 2, and you get a saving thow)
Paladin: (only encounters)
1) Invigorating Smite - 5+Wis healing if you hit (affects all bloodied, including the Paladin)
2) Renewing Smite - 10+Wis healing
Hospitaler
1) Good features: The Challenged foe can't kill your Soulforged-wearing ally, and spending an action point also gives healing.
2) Healing Font - works the entire encounter, and can heal as long as you hit at least enemy.
On a side note, a Battle Standard of Healing is amusing as long as your party spends healing surges in the zone (close burst 5.)
Quote: : Dragon Incidentally, I think the real problem with Veteran's Armor isn't wearing it, as it isn't that amazing as worn armor, but rather people just lugging around five suits of +1 Veteran's Armor so they can convert all their excess AP into Dailies between battles.
Exactly. That's precisely what my group is doing now.
The Wizard is finding it hilarious, especially since he's getting tons of APs from the Fighter/Cleric having multiple Symbols of Victory that the Wizard bought specifically for giving himself APs (the Fighter doesn't have much stuff to do with his magic item dailies.)
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Quote: : Exactly.
That's precisely what my group is doing now.
The Wizard is finding it hilarious, especially since he's getting tons of APs from the Fighter/Cleric having multiple Symbols of Victory that the Wizard bought specifically for giving himself APs (the Fighter doesn't have much stuff to do with his magic item dailies.) Assuming I allow the Adventurer's Guide at all (depends on whether I keep it or return it, and I haven't finished reading it), I'm errataing Veteran's Armor to only work when you get attacked by an enemy, preventing such shenanigans.
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Quote: : Exactly.
That's precisely what my group is doing now.
The Wizard is finding it hilarious, especially since he's getting tons of APs from the Fighter/Cleric having multiple Symbols of Victory that the Wizard bought specifically for giving himself APs (the Fighter doesn't have much stuff to do with his magic item dailies.) all i can say there is: bad party.
Make them ridiculous for such a usage.
This is not at all heroic, and they should feel that.
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"When you use a magic item's Daily power you cannot use that Daily power again until you take an extended rest whether the power is from the same item or a different but identical one." -- one of my houserules.
Also, with Veteran's Armor, instead of having it only function when you are attacked, have it only grant the recharged power until the end of your next turn.
Easier to use and closer to the written text, but still restrictive enough to not be abusable outside of combat.
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Quote: : "When you use a magic item's Daily power you cannot use that Daily power again until you take an extended rest whether the power is from the same item or a different but identical one." -- one of my houserules.
Also, with Veteran's Armor, instead of having it only function when you are attacked, have it only grant the recharged power until the end of your next turn.
Easier to use and closer to the written text, but still restrictive enough to not be abusable outside of combat.
That house rule is unecessary as you can only use 1 daily item power in a single day (at heroic levels), two daily items powers from seperate items in a single day (at paragon levels), or three daily item powers from seperate items in a single day (epic levels).
Here is the relevenat rules text.
Quote: : Handbook, p.
226 Daily: A magic item’s daily power can be used once per day and is renewed when its user takes an extended rest.
As with daily powers provided by your class, there is a limit to the number of magic item daily powers you can use on any given day.
This limit depends on your level.
At 1st–10th level, you can use one magic item daily power per day.
At 11th–20th level, you can use two magic item daily powers per day.
At 21st–30th level, you can use three magic item daily powers per day.
Each use of a magic item daily power must come from a different magic item.
At 11th level, for example, you can use the daily powers provided by two different magic items, but you can’t use two different daily powers from the same magic item.
Your character sheet includes boxes to help you keep track of these uses.
Each time you reach a milestone (see page 259), you gain one additional use of a magic item daily power.
This benefit can be used to activate any magic item daily power that you have not already used this day (even if you’ve already used a different daily power from that magic item).
After you take an extended rest, all of your magic item daily powers are renewed, and you start fresh with regard to the number of magic item daily powers you can use per day.
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Quote: : "When you use a magic item's Daily power you cannot use that Daily power again until you take an extended rest whether the power is from the same item or a different but identical one." -- one of my houserules.
Also, with Veteran's Armor, instead of having it only function when you are attacked, have it only grant the recharged power until the end of your next turn.
Easier to use and closer to the written text, but still restrictive enough to not be abusable outside of combat.
I think that's a good houserule.
Quote: : Dragon I don't think its clear at all that some armors are not massively better than others, its just difficult to compare them in a decent manner.
How good is trollskin armor relative to agile armor?
Its a difficult comparison.
One gives you a large boost in one encounter, and heals you up to full after the encounter ends;
The other gives you a not-inconsiderable AC boost all day long, preventing as much damage overall as the trollskin is likely to heal, but in a more spread-out way.
This doesn't mean that one of them isn't better than the other, but that it is hard to compare them.
Your frustration is dear to my own.
What is the mathematical trade off between HP and AC?
Generally speaking and/or not specific to these particular armors.
I would assume there is diminishing returns in that the movement from 27 to 28 AC isn't worth as much HP as the movement from 20 to 21 should be.
I would also guess knowing average to-hits and DPS from the monster manual would be needed to figure this out.
I.E.
A monster at a said tier has an average to-hit of X which means in N numbers of attacks you are taking a likely result of Y damage.
Sounds like you may be have already figured some of this out though.
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Quote: : I actually think that Hydra Armor is better than Trollskin, though it can't be put on hide (which likely won't really matter for those choosing between Agile Armor and this.) The biggest problem is the inability to choose when you get the benefits, but when you do it doesn't cost a magic item daily and gives you the same or a better effect (doesn't go away with going <
0 or fire/acid damage) with a lower level item.
It can also trigger multiple times per day (and it likely will on a Defender.)
Personally, I actually think that Soulforged Armor is the best armor for a Defender with a good amount of healing available for the party.
It not only prevents sudden unconsciousness/death, it also potentially gives you a large amount of extra healing.
All damage beyond 0 is completely ignored when they receive healing, so you could effectively fight from any place you gain even 1 hp/round and survive indefinitely.
(Consecrated Ground is a good example of this) It might even be a good strategy to start off encounters at low health to gain the benefits of this, as long as you have easy ways to access healing multiple times (the amount doesn't matter, it's only the number of times it can be given)
Some particularly good ways of optimizing this idea include having these powers available to the party: (doesn't spend healing surges)
Cleric:
Dailies
1) Consecrated Ground - works for an entire encounter
2) Purifying Fire - likely to work for quite a bit of time if you have a decent number of targets, and he can simply move to another target (OAs don't matter if he needs the healing, as it'll all go away when he gets any healing anyway)
3) If Radiant Servant, Healing Sun works for likely for ~entire encounter.
Encounters
1) Inspiring Strike - 15 + Cha healing if you hit (otherwise simply use Healing Word)
2) Healing Torch - 10 + Cha healing (to everyone in a burst 2, and you get a saving thow)
Paladin: (only encounters)
1) Invigorating Smite - 5+Wis healing if you hit (affects all bloodied, including the Paladin)
2) Renewing Smite - 10+Wis healing
Hospitaler
1) Good features: The Challenged foe can't kill your Soulforged-wearing ally, and spending an action point also gives healing.
2) Healing Font - works the entire encounter, and can heal as long as you hit at least enemy.
On a side note, a Battle Standard of Healing is amusing as long as your party spends healing surges in the zone (close burst 5.)
Exactly.
That's precisely what my group is doing now.
The Wizard is finding it hilarious, especially since he's getting tons of APs from the Fighter/Cleric having multiple Symbols of Victory that the Wizard bought specifically for giving himself APs (the Fighter doesn't have much stuff to do with his magic item dailies.) Clerics also have Sunburst as an encounter ability.
Once you're a Demigod, it means you're immortal unless stunned.
Don't forget Paladins also have Lay on Hands.
Assuming a starting score of 16, you'll have 24 by level 21, which essentially means whatever enemy you're fighting will have to drop you below zero 8 times before you stay down.
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Quote: : Dragon Assuming I allow the Adventurer's Guide at all (depends on whether I keep it or return it, and I haven't finished reading it), I'm errataing Veteran's Armor to only work when you get attacked by an enemy, preventing such shenanigans.
Quote: : all i can say there is: bad party.
Make them ridiculous for such a usage.
This is not at all heroic, and they should feel that.
Currently, my group is sort of playing a 'get a feel for the game and its abuses', rather than a full-fledged 'campaign'.
(it's still designed with a plot, but there's not much roleplaying and it's somewhat like a hack-n-slash) Our DM for our other campaign actually left for about half a year, so we're doing this in the meantime.
I helped everyone build their characters in an optimal way.
The Wizard/Blood Mage is ridiculous...
Did you notice the orb with the encounter power that pushes with an arcane attack power?
Quote: : Clerics also have Sunburst as an encounter ability.
Once you're a Demigod, it means you're immortal unless stunned.
Don't forget Paladins also have Lay on Hands.
Assuming a starting score of 16, you'll have 24 by level 21, which essentially means whatever enemy you're fighting will have to drop you below zero 8 times before you stay down.
Yeah, I actually meant to write Sunburst instead of Healing Torch.
I'm going to edit that in.
And while Lay on Hands is more access to healing, I was specifically mentioning the healing you can get without even spending a healing surge.
There are plenty of ways to access healing through healing surges.
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Quote: : What is the mathematical trade off between HP and AC?
Generally speaking and/or not specific to these particular armors.
I would assume there is diminishing returns in that the movement from 27 to 28 AC isn't worth as much HP as the movement from 20 to 21 should be.
I would also guess knowing average to-hits and DPS from the monster manual would be needed to figure this out.
Actually its the opposite, in a way.
The real issue is that what matters isn't HP but how long you spend alive.
As such, the higher you go, the larger the percentage of damage you reduce.
If you're going from being hit on a 7 to an 8, that's only a relatively small decrease in percentage of damage taken;
From 13 to 14 is twice as significant.
As such, hp and AC are correlated in the really important value, attacks survived.
+15 hit points is more valuable to a character with very high AC than one with low AC.
Quote: : Clerics also have Sunburst as an encounter ability.
Once you're a Demigod, it means you're immortal unless stunned.
As long as you don't alter the Archmage and Demigod capstone abilities, level 30 is trivial anyway.
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Quote: : That house rule is unecessary as you can only use 1 daily item power in a single day (at heroic levels), two daily items powers from seperate items in a single day (at paragon levels), or three daily item powers from seperate items in a single day (epic levels).
Here is the relevenat rules text.
You gain an additional magic item daily power every milestone.
My group often hits three milestones before resting.
This would allow them to use four suits of Veterans Armor;
Thus, the rule is perfectly necessary.
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