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B&N Book Clubs - Ilana's Journal Week 29: Sewell and Sex Drive - Literature & Life with Ilana Simons - Book Clubs
I’m interested in “female sexual dysfunction” these days.
Sexual dysfunction is defined as a problem in desire, orgasm, or sexual pain.
Most studies show that 45-75 percent of women suffer from this “disorder.” That percentage prompts a question: Is a “disorder” a disorder when most people suffer from it?
The question is important for me these days because of a book I recently ran across, I'd Rather Eat Chocolate: Learning to Love My Low Libido (Broadway, 2007) by Joan Sewell.
In this autobiographical book, Sewell describes what it’s like to negotiate a marriage when you have a far lower libido that your husband does.
The difference in libido between the sexes has been a political issue for a long time.
Through (I’d say badly-established) evolutionary theories, we argue that the man (concerned with having as many heirs as possible) is made to spread his sperm everywhere and often, and the women (burdened with the nine-month pregnancy) is born to look for long-term, loving connections.
Research studies do indeed show that men, on average, have larger sex drives than women, which is largely fueled by their higher levels of testosterone.
But this discrepancy has been a sore point for some of us feminists.
We’ve feared that when men call women less sexual, it’s a justification for stereotypes.
I.e. here the man is free—and naturally, inherently polygamous.
The woman is simply born more clingy for her mate.
She is born to experience less adventure.
In other words, feminists like me have often fought this supposed discrepancy in sex drives because we know a woman has the right to a life that’s as independent as a man’s is.
That said, Sewell’s book suggests we might want to change the language of our fight.
Here’s the issue (just call it the fact, of her life): Maybe men do have bigger sex drives.
(Some women have bigger drives, but we’re talking statistics.) If that’s so, why should women be cast as the “dysfunctional” ones?
To repeat the statistic above, science characterizes about 40-75% of women as having a “deficient sex drive.” But…deficient compared to whom?
If women want sex less than men do, shouldn’t we have a right to call this normal, and even call the average male drive the aberrant thing?
(see http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/lackingsexdrive.htm and http://www.aphroditewomenshealth.com/news/low_libido.shtml .) There have recently been massive efforts by pharmaceutical companies to produce a Viagra-type drug for women, to increase the sex drive of the 50% of women who are said to have a “deficient drive.” Sewell would argue that female Viagra reflects a cultural push to suit biologically masculine desires, to cast female desires as unnatural.
The fact is that culture rallies—in excess—about sex.
I know it feels like a sin upon nature!
Whenever I try to argue that sex isn’t as good as people claim it is.
Of course Sewell got a lot of hate mail for her book.
One Amazon reviewer wrote this: “If this is her description of sex, I have to wonder how healthy a mental attitude she has about sex.
[This book] caused me to question why a guy would ever want to have a long-term relationship without a mistress.” Another wrote this to Sewell: “Just stuff your face with chocolate and keep making those excuses.”
People hate women to debunk our dominant cultural fascination with sex.
It makes her look terribly unliberated, and “not in love with herself.” I think that’s absurd.
A lot of women like me would feel liberated to shout from some podium our higher desire for platonic joys (for me: conversation and teaching).
The fear here is that we’d be called self-rejecting.
I’d love to hear what you think.
here.
01-07-2008 11:33 AM
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I think that as a male I had better stay on the sidelines of this one, at least for awhile!
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Reply - back to Ilana: You're on the money....not sure what denomination....mixed reviews.
And as a female, I need to...ah...I was going to say, "sleep on it"....[bad choice of words] but, what I mean is....have time to reflect on my own....ah....position...ah ah
just give me a moment, here, I'm trying to compose myself...take a breath while I, ah....cough up a few centuries of my own personal-cultural stigmas....err...something like that.
I'll get back to you on this subject, after I write my dissertation on me, myself, and I, and my d p feelings on this subject.
Late, tonight,
K.
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Blasting brain cell barriers trying to come up with something that marks this page as intelligent.
No can do.
Stand tall....live for the moment....say no to whatever...shoot for whatever....
and point no fingers....
duh, duh, and no duh!
And last, but never the least....
use conversation when everything else fails....
I say no more...well, almost...
p.s.
1 a.m.
wear your coat
dear,
I hear
Chicago is chilly this time
of year.
(no, this is not your mother speaking,
just someone who can't carry a conversation at the moment -
- joining the rest of the ranks in speech depravation)
p.s.s.
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness.
Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.
Message Edited by KathyS on 01-08-2008 04:34 AM
The tiger leapt, and the swallow dipped her wings in dark pools on the other side of the world.
The Waves
V.
Woolf
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Hello Ilana and fellow readers, up periscope tonight for elections and took a quick look here to see what's on the front burner...and by golly, where there's smoke there's usually fire...great question to explore.
I don't have time to look this us for particulars, but anthropologically speaking, in the ancient Indian tradition of kama sutra, there's a sexual scale of three levels (if memory serves).
Let's say, 1/ low sexual energy, 2/average, 3/high sexual drive.
These levels for men and women are represented by animals.
Ah, a quick "google" reveals:
MAN WOMAN
1/rabbit dove
2/bull mare
3/horse she-elephant
http://www.bookrags.com/Kama_Sutra
"In Kama Sutra, male and female are each divided into three categories: man as rabbit, bull, and horse;
Woman as dove, mare, and she-elephant.
The rabbit is handsome, tender, and soft-spoken.
The bull is stout and well shaped, emitting semen with a salty odor;
The horse is sturdy, long-faced, and sexually passionate.
Similarly, the woman characterized by the dove is exceptionally beautiful, engaging, and soft-spoken;
Her discharges are as fragrant as the blossoming lotus.
A mare woman is slim, tall, and easily seduced.
She emits a fishy aroma.
The she-elephant woman is fat, gluttonous, awkward in demeanor, and highly sexed.
The size of the animal is related to the size of the genitalia.
Thus, a happy and harmonious sexual relationship between a man and woman depends on having compatible qualities.
Otherwise, Kama Sutra maintains, their sexual and married life will prove disastrous."
My point here is a simple one.
Men and women are probably better suited in pairing off depending on their general level of sexual intensity.
Perhaps that's fundamentally an inherited genetic tendency unrelated to education or intellect.
Finding out that proper pairing is perhaps what the dating game is all about.
Predicting sexual level by casual observation of a person's public social behavior is probably not very useful.
The plot thickens obviously and gossip ensues.
Bertrand Russell, one of the greatest philosophers of the past century (ground breaking work on symbolic logic as the foundation of mathematics), was also to all accounts one of the most promiscuously active goats of his generation!
Or in kama sutra terms, a "horse", I should say.
I'm not putting forth any correlation between genius and high sexual habits however.
I've essayed out onto uncertain ground here and will call a halt.
I do sympathize with both sexes in this incredibly complex business of matchmaking and mating habits.
I guess, in summary, first one has to know one's level...and go from there.
Jim Stallings: (Peruse published fiction ):
http://www.jimstallings.com
All books available through B&N also.
"Literature is humanity's deep gossip."
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Hi Jim,
I'm on board with your description of dating as an unconscious game in which we scope out the other's compatibility.
Maybe I inserted the "unconscious" bit.
I'm into that recently.
I just read a great article in Psychology Today, here: http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20071228- 1.html
about how we unconsciously scope out partners.
Some studies have shown that we're attracted to the scent of partners whose immune systems are supplementary to our own.
Researchers had women sniff shirts from various men, and found out that women are attracted to men with genomes that supplement their own immune systems.
This attraction is not consciously registered.
So: our "do-good!" minds butt up against unconscious life.
We sometimes try to force ourselves into what we think are suitable marriages, while our "guts" (here: our noses) tug us to different partners.
I.e. a lot of us can't figure out why part of us craves what the head doesn’t crave, and it drives us crazy.
and...p.s.
I love the animal descriptions.
I guess I'm a mare.
Though none seems to fit.
I think I'm a raisin at a computer.
Message Edited by IlanaSimons on 01-09-2008 02:21 AM
Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.
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I've mulled this over for a few days;
I've written three different points of view, each being different depending on the time of day I've attempted it.
One in the cold light of day, one very late at night, after a couple of glasses of wine, and now at this time of the morning, and wondering why my points of view change with the time of day....who knows?
This is not a subject that I write about, nor talk too much about.
Again, it's not that I can't, it's just that it doesn't come into most of my conversations.
I read these articles you gave us.
And I've read Jim's points, and Choisya's, which have both helped me think further on this subject, and maybe come to some of my own conclusions along these lines....thanks, I need all the help I can get.
I'll lead into this slowing.
My dance. I can't start this subject without prefacing where I'm coming from: Last night I had the most incredible evening.
My friend, Susie, invited me to her house.
She wanted me to hear her brother play the piano, and hoped I would also play for her, which I've never done.
Susie, at this time, because of her bought with cancer, lives with her brother and family.
She had previously told me he has a Grand piano in their dinning room!
My fingers itched just listing to her talk.
Not only that, but an electronic drum set, and every piece of sound equipment you could think to own!
He plays the piano to unwind after work.
Susie fixed me a plate of food, and I sat and visited with her sister-in-law, and brother for a little while, never having met them before, but I fit right in, which was nice.
Common things to share with people, make it easier to enjoy someone's company.
Barrie, her brother, finally sat down at the piano and started to accompany Andrea Bocelli.
I was dumbfounded he had downloaded the piano music to these pieces that Bocelli sings, and arranged them to play along with he's singing voice!
I stopped talking, and eating.
To make a long story short, Susie and I migrated into the living room to listen further.
He asked me more than once if I wanted to play.
I declined. His daughter sang for us, an incredible 13 year old voice, I was in awe.
If she were older, and on American Idol, she'd win, hands down.
Later, Susie and her brother finally persuaded me to play.
I gave in; I was dying to play.
This is where I have to stop and tell you, to me, this is better than sex!
To listen to music, and then being able to put my hands on those keys of a Grand piano, I swear to you, when I played, I could do no wrong!
I never, ever, like to play for people.
I have, but it makes me incredibly uncomfortable, in fear of making a mistake....embarrassing myself in front of someone, I don't like to do.
Now, again, what does this have to do with sexual desires, or dysfunction.
It all, at least for me, boils down to feelings of my own desires.
My own, personal desires and how I interpret them.
We all have feelings for something, and how we shift them in our lives, does reflect on who we are, and how we become our own person.
I was my own persona, last night.
No, Ilana, categorically, I don't believe that we should put our feelings and desires up for debate.
These are all so individualized, and personal.
Each of us have our own needs to satisfy ourselves, and if that doesn't satisfy your partner, then I think these relationships have to be re-thought.
Idealistically.
I think Choisya defined some of these myths and truths about women's libido, versus the mans.
The question would be, why is it, or has it been defined as a "disorder".
It shouldn't be. I would take a stand on this, if I thought it was a real issue to stand on.
I honestly don't.
Speaking as a female, there are definitely different levels of desire.
The 'atmosphere' during these moments of relationships, or sexual encounters, certainly play a large part in the act of sex, itself.
I want to call it love making, but in a lot of cases, it has nothing to do with love.
Love, for me, does play a huge part in it, at least to be a satisfying experience for me in a long term relationship.
In the male, the love interest, I know, plays a lesser part;
Becoming just an act, more than a deeper feeling.
Again, this does vary from person to person, and expectations.
For me, it's a musical dance, one that each partner has to understand and know the steps to to bring it to satisfaction for both.
Some of these steps come naturally, some don't, and when they don't, they have to be learned.
I use these musical analogies because right now I'm feeling the music!
Marriages can fall apart, when the incompatibility continues, and nothing is resolved.
The act of sex, for most partnerships, is just another part of what relationships have to have, to continue to grow.
If you want to call it a political issue, then it's your choice of words.
History does dictate this.
Medical research does dictate this.
Yes, we get into historical theories, from biblical times, to present....a hard case to fight...and yes, this is where we get into more of what researchers have written papers about....and psychologist have treated....and mostly male Doctors deem it a woman's 'problem'.
Now...here comes the interesting part.
The medical vs the psychological, vs the problematic stereotypical relationship between men and women.
It all has a reason, and it all has a purpose....but it never should be a political point of view...unfortunately, to which it has become.
I won't debate the sore points.
Mainly because I don't see them as that, at this point in my life, and in history, because these points, I believe, are evolving, and continue to change.
If a man calls a women less sexual, than I deem it his problem, not mine also, I don't feel it is anyone's right to make these judgments on each other.
In this day and age, all of these stereotypes are running aground.
I see women in every role, now.
I never viewed my life as being born to experience less of any kind of adventure.
My mother, and her mother, were in no way the typical homemaker.
Baring the junk they brought into my life, they both worked.
My mother, and my dad, raised their family, and both worked.
I was forced to look at all of the women in my life, and all of the men, and weigh all of these issues.
Maybe in my case, now, after years of therapy, I was able to see the balance that has to happen in my own relationships.
I don't know. I'm still not immune to still having to work at my relationships.
I'm not the expert in the field, by far.
I don't feel women, at least the ones I've talked to, feel they are "born" to these "less adventures".
Probably because I surround myself with more liberated women.
With all of our talks on feminism, and changing roles, I think these views are changing also.
Boys, soon to be men, will find themselves in a different role/perspective in the world, both personal, and professional.
The men and women roles are, as I see them, moving in different directions, as from the past.
The independence of women play a stronger role in today's society, I agree.
And you have every right to fight this situation/discrepancy, if it is one for you which you want to fight.
I just don't view it as a fight, or as something I would climb up on my usual soap box to fight for.
Or maybe it's because these issues are just occurring more subtly than I realize.
Maybe the language, as you call it, has already changed?
Statistics are just statistics, and they all depend on who's running the show on these, where they base their information.
In what part of history.
Men have now become under the influence of the progressive drug hype, just to keep themselves in the field of satisfying the woman.
Here is the role reversal I see happening.
This is more of a derogatory statement, AGAINST, the male sex drive, then for it.
I don't see this as showing women as "dysfunctional".
On the contrary.
I agree, as you said, shouldn't we have a right to call this normal, and even call the average male drive the aberrant thing.
If you view it as a female deficiency, yes.
I think a lot of this attention to the drug induced sexual drive, has a lot of media hype, thrown into the mix of real, both physical, and psychological, problems.
Now, they bring the women into these categories of supposedly dysfunctional situations.
Let's share the blame, sort of thing!
Everyone has a problem, if deemed a problem, in the realm of sexual performance, at some point in their life.
How much can be resolved without the media becoming involved;
The pharmaceutical companies being involved;
All wanting a part of this race by the drug companies and advertisers to want wealth, in turn sensationalizing this category of partner's, or relationship's sexual habits.
Again, I don't think it casts females in the negative role.
But I do agree that it shows too much emphasis on what sex actually means in any relationship.
As I started out talking about music.
I have a lot going on in my life, that I now don't view sex as being a major player.
Of course, as you know, I'm no longer married, so in that case it's not an issue.
I know it has to do with what stages we are in, in our life, and how old we are, and a myriad of other things
But when sex it great, it's outstanding for those moments;
When it's good, it's just okay....and when it's just an act, I'd rather have a glass of good wine, close the door with a book, and call it a night!
There are so many ways to connect with people, or find satisfaction in our lives, that it really doesn't have to be about this over hyped ritual around this dance of sex.
I told you this was going to be a dissertation!
Kathy
Message Edited by KathyS on 01-11-2008 12:40 PM
The tiger leapt, and the swallow dipped her wings in dark pools on the other side of the world.
The Waves
V.
Woolf
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Great posts both KathyS and Jim.
I was interested in Jim's choice of quoting from the Kama Sutra because when arranging marriages Asians pay attention to the character of both the parties and take into account things like a 'passionate nature'.
The Kama Sutra is widely read in Asia and is often given to prospective brides by their mothers as a form a sex education.
In the UK we have a series running on TV at the moment where an Asian marriage arranger is sorting out partners, using her methods, for English girls and so far she has been quite successful.
She does not exactly get anyone to smell shirts but she certainly goes into a lot of background detail about the prospective partners themselves and their parents and families.
However, the expectation in Asia sems to be that the prospective bride should be docile and, of course, a virgin.
A dove would attract a higher bride price than a mare!
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Choisya, interesting thoughts, these arranged marriages.
I've wondered how successful they are.
I still think back, on occasions such as these, to what it was that attracted me to my husband.
It's been so many years, and all I knew was, I fell in love with him the first night I met him....was it his smell?
I don't know. Was it his innocent nature he projected to me, revealing that mother instinct that may be in us women to seek in our male partners...he did smell good, though!
Before marriage, as time went by, the gut started to take over the head, and the head started to take over the heart, but the heart ruled in my case, and, again, I should have stayed with the gut and head, to reveal what it was I should have been looking for, but, love is the incredible ruler in transforming that young mind into something that becomes irreversible in these situations....
I long to go back and do it all over again...but, with gut/head instinct this time, I don't think it prevails, most of the time.
I loved my husband with every ounce of my being, but, in the end, it wasn't enough to just want love, it was the passion that separated us, the realities that can't be seen through this fog It's a comprehension that is hard to understand, and make sense of, most of the time when the heart beats faster than the mind can comprehend
blockQuote: >
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As millions of people in the world are married by arrangement and have been for centuries, I doubt whether this method is any less successful than ours KathyS.
I had a Muslim lodger staying with me for 6 years (he worked here but went home to the Midlands at weekends) and his arranged marriage was very happy, as were those of many of his relatives whom I met.
He said that he and his wife were compatible from the beginning but 'love came later'.
In good Asian families a lot of care is taken by the parents and 'elders' in choosing partners for compatability etc.
And they are given several choices.
Here is an article about the TV programme:-
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490647&in_page_id=1770
Perhaps because, as you say, our heart rules our head and gut in so many instances, that is a good case for an arranged marriage or something more rational at least.
From the 60s (to get back to Ilana's theme) a great deal of emphasis has been put upon sexual compatibility and trying your partner out before marriage.
But given the higher rate of divorce, can this now be said to be a good way to choose?
I tried my first husband out before marriage (!) and when I look back on it I am pleased I did because I think that encountering sex as a virgin is quite frightening and might not be a very good start to a marriage.
I also think it might account for quite a lot of 'dysfunction' afterwards.
Perhaps Ilana has seen some research results on this?
Quote: :
Choisya, interesting thoughts, these arranged marriages.
I've wondered how successful they are.
I still think back, on occasions such as these, to what it was that attracted me to my husband.
It's been so many years, and all I knew was, I fell in love with him the first night I met him....was it his smell?
I don't know. Was it his innocent nature he projected to me, revealing that mother instinct that may be in us women to seek in our male partners...he did smell good, though!
Before marriage, as time went by, the gut started to take over the head, and the head started to take over the heart, but the heart ruled in my case, and, again, I should have stayed with the gut and head, to reveal what it was I should have been looking for, but, love is the incredible ruler in transforming that young mind into something that becomes irreversible in these situations....
I long to go back and do it all over again...but, with gut/head instinct this time, I don't think it prevails, most of the time.
I loved my husband with every ounce of my being, but, in the end, it wasn't enough to just want love, it was the passion that separated us, the realities that can't be seen through this fog It's a comprehension that is hard to understand, and make sense of, most of the time when the heart beats faster than the mind can comprehend
Quote: :
Great posts both KathyS and Jim.
I was interested in Jim's choice of quoting from the Kama Sutra because when arranging marriages Asians pay attention to the character of both the parties and take into account things like a 'passionate nature'.
The Kama Sutra is widely read in Asia and is often given to prospective brides by their mothers as a form a sex education.
In the UK we have a series running on TV at the moment where an Asian marriage arranger is sorting out partners, using her methods, for English girls and so far she has been quite successful.
She does not exactly get anyone to smell shirts but she certainly goes into a lot of background detail about the prospective partners themselves and their parents and families.
However, the expectation in Asia sems to be that the prospective bride should be docile and, of course, a virgin.
A dove would attract a higher bride price than a mare!
Message Edited by KathyS on 01-12-2008 12:20 AM
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Choisya, I've bashed my head against the wall since this discussion started I think the bottom line to entering any relationship is knowing yourself.
Without true knowledge of who you are, and what you want out of life, you'll never really find, either with your own seeking, or arranged marriage;
Or with any other kind of relationships, what it is you are looking for----
Love for anyone, as I've said, can hit you like a ton of bricks, or just cascade into your life;
Finding out that half of the time you never know what fell in your path.
It can simply happen.
My love has such incredible tension and passion, I fight myself to hold those feelings back, even on this board.
But it never fails, I've shown these passions on this board, to my chagrin, and I wish I could stop it, believe me, but I can't.
Like now, playing that music I felt last night simply blindsides me!
I can't stop it, I'm floating still, it moves me so, to the point I'm compelled to speak about it.
It's what it is in my life.
If I ever thought of entering another committed relationship, that person would have to know and understand me, or have the same passions as I have.
This is what I've learned about myself.
Quote: :
As millions of people in the world are married by arrangement and have been for centuries, I doubt whether this method is any less successful than ours KathyS.
I had a Muslim lodger staying with me for 6 years (he worked here but went home to the Midlands at weekends) and his arranged marriage was very happy, as were those of many of his relatives whom I met.
He said that he and his wife were compatible from the beginning but 'love came later'.
In good Asian families a lot of care is taken by the parents and 'elders' in choosing partners for compatability etc.
And they are given several choices.
Here is an article about the TV programme:-
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490647&in_page_id=1770
Perhaps because, as you say, our heart rules our head and gut in so many instances, that is a good case for an arranged marriage or something more rational at least.
From the 60s (to get back to Ilana's theme) a great deal of emphasis has been put upon sexual compatibility and trying your partner out before marriage.
But given the higher rate of divorce, can this now be said to be a good way to choose?
I tried my first husband out before marriage (!) and when I look back on it I am pleased I did because I think that encountering sex as a virgin is quite frightening and might not be a very good start to a marriage.
I also think it might account for quite a lot of 'dysfunction' afterwards.
Perhaps Ilana has seen some research results on this?
Quote: :
Choisya, interesting thoughts, these arranged marriages.
I've wondered how successful they are.
I still think back, on occasions such as these, to what it was that attracted me to my husband.
It's been so many years, and all I knew was, I fell in love with him the first night I met him....was it his smell?
I don't know. Was it his innocent nature he projected to me, revealing that mother instinct that may be in us women to seek in our male partners...he did smell good, though!
Before marriage, as time went by, the gut started to take over the head, and the head started to take over the heart, but the heart ruled in my case, and, again, I should have stayed with the gut and head, to reveal what it was I should have been looking for, but, love is the incredible ruler in transforming that young mind into something that becomes irreversible in these situations....
I long to go back and do it all over again...but, with gut/head instinct this time, I don't think it prevails, most of the time.
I loved my husband with every ounce of my being, but, in the end, it wasn't enough to just want love, it was the passion that separated us, the realities that can't be seen through this fog It's a comprehension that is hard to understand, and make sense of, most of the time when the heart beats faster than the mind can comprehend
Quote: :
Great posts both KathyS and Jim.
I was interested in Jim's choice of quoting from the Kama Sutra because when arranging marriages Asians pay attention to the character of both the parties and take into account things like a 'passionate nature'.
The Kama Sutra is widely read in Asia and is often given to prospective brides by their mothers as a form a sex education.
In the UK we have a series running on TV at the moment where an Asian marriage arranger is sorting out partners, using her methods, for English girls and so far she has been quite successful.
She does not exactly get anyone to smell shirts but she certainly goes into a lot of background detail about the prospective partners themselves and their parents and families.
However, the expectation in Asia sems to be that the prospective bride should be docile and, of course, a virgin.
A dove would attract a higher bride price than a mare!
Message Edited by KathyS on 01-12-2008 12:20 AM
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Thanks KathyS. However, traditionally, people marry when they are quite young.
Do you think it is possible to 'know yourself' in your late teens or twenties?
Is the same person who is able to look after several children well the same person who can fulfil herself in a career?
One of the problems I see with modern marriage is that, because we now live so much longer, we have several phases in our lives where we are, to all intents and purposes, different people with different needs and passions.
Quote: :
Choisya, I've bashed my head against the wall since this discussion started I think the bottom line to entering any relationship is knowing yourself.
Without true knowledge of who you are, and what you want out of life, you'll never really find, either with your own seeking, or arranged marriage;
Or with any other kind of relationships, what it is you are looking for----
Love for anyone, as I've said, can hit you like a ton of bricks, or just cascade into your life;
Finding out that half of the time you never know what fell in your path.
It can simply happen.
My love has such incredible tension and passion, I fight myself to hold those feelings back, even on this board.
But it never fails, I've shown these passions on this board, to my chagrin, and I wish I could stop it, believe me, but I can't.
Like now, playing that music I felt last night simply blindsides me!
I can't stop it, I'm floating still, it moves me so, to the point I'm compelled to speak about it.
It's what it is in my life.
If I ever thought of entering another committed relationship, that person would have to know and understand me, or have the same passions as I have.
This is what I've learned about myself.
Quote: :
As millions of people in the world are married by arrangement and have been for centuries, I doubt whether this method is any less successful than ours KathyS.
I had a Muslim lodger staying with me for 6 years (he worked here but went home to the Midlands at weekends) and his arranged marriage was very happy, as were those of many of his relatives whom I met.
He said that he and his wife were compatible from the beginning but 'love came later'.
In good Asian families a lot of care is taken by the parents and 'elders' in choosing partners for compatability etc.
And they are given several choices.
Here is an article about the TV programme:-
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490647&in_page_id=1770
Perhaps because, as you say, our heart rules our head and gut in so many instances, that is a good case for an arranged marriage or something more rational at least.
From the 60s (to get back to Ilana's theme) a great deal of emphasis has been put upon sexual compatibility and trying your partner out before marriage.
But given the higher rate of divorce, can this now be said to be a good way to choose?
I tried my first husband out before marriage (!) and when I look back on it I am pleased I did because I think that encountering sex as a virgin is quite frightening and might not be a very good start to a marriage.
I also think it might account for quite a lot of 'dysfunction' afterwards.
Perhaps Ilana has seen some research results on this?
Quote: :
Choisya, interesting thoughts, these arranged marriages.
I've wondered how successful they are.
I still think back, on occasions such as these, to what it was that attracted me to my husband.
It's been so many years, and all I knew was, I fell in love with him the first night I met him....was it his smell?
I don't know. Was it his innocent nature he projected to me, revealing that mother instinct that may be in us women to seek in our male partners...he did smell good, though!
Before marriage, as time went by, the gut started to take over the head, and the head started to take over the heart, but the heart ruled in my case, and, again, I should have stayed with the gut and head, to reveal what it was I should have been looking for, but, love is the incredible ruler in transforming that young mind into something that becomes irreversible in these situations....
I long to go back and do it all over again...but, with gut/head instinct this time, I don't think it prevails, most of the time.
I loved my husband with every ounce of my being, but, in the end, it wasn't enough to just want love, it was the passion that separated us, the realities that can't be seen through this fog It's a comprehension that is hard to understand, and make sense of, most of the time when the heart beats faster than the mind can comprehend
Quote: :
Great posts both KathyS and Jim.
I was interested in Jim's choice of quoting from the Kama Sutra because when arranging marriages Asians pay attention to the character of both the parties and take into account things like a 'passionate nature'.
The Kama Sutra is widely read in Asia and is often given to prospective brides by their mothers as a form a sex education.
In the UK we have a series running on TV at the moment where an Asian marriage arranger is sorting out partners, using her methods, for English girls and so far she has been quite successful.
She does not exactly get anyone to smell shirts but she certainly goes into a lot of background detail about the prospective partners themselves and their parents and families.
However, the expectation in Asia sems to be that the prospective bride should be docile and, of course, a virgin.
A dove would attract a higher bride price than a mare!
Message Edited by KathyS on 01-12-2008 12:20 AM Message Edited by KathyS on 01-12-2008 02:15 AM
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Choisya, you are absolutely right, you can't really know yourself, or your partner completely, especially at a young age.
That's what it was I was alluding to, when I said I was bashing my head on this topic, because you have to be so objective with this subject, and still it was hard for me, because emotions at all stages of our lives, and at any given time of day, enter into the equation, especially the younger you are.
I've only identified with one of those equations, which is simply my deeper feelings about people, and the things that are in my life.
There are so many other personality segments that have to be taken into this, but I have to look at the most problematic, to evaluate what it is I'm taking into a relationship.
And to have it work for two people, this is the issue for me.
I have found other people who share my same likes and dislikes, but there is the basic personality that everyone first sees.
I have days of being mellow, and I have days of hyper-ness.
It just depends on which day you get introduced to me!
When I first met my husband, I was nineteen, and at first it was all about my passion, then I really looked beyond the feelings, with my head asking my gut why I wasn't going with them!
My heart told them to shut up!
LOL It was made clear to those two that the heart was going to over-rule!
And every stage of my life I've gone through what it is I'm meant to go though, but I try to use my head more, when my gut speaks to it...but it doesn't always work, because the older I've become, the more the passion seems to grow.
Then I have to start all over again and work through the same things I did when I was nineteen.
In saying this, and referring back to your subject of arranged marriages, I do believe that love can come from them, but it definitely would have to depend on how much someone is willing to give of themselves, and commit to staying in that relationship.
There is the dilemma of having children, and working at a career.
I've split myself on this subject, also.
I think children need full time parenting, by one or the other parent.
So many problems happen, that I've seen first hand, when children don't have this.
I don't have statistics on these problems, but I know the emotional value that is lost when parents are split, and the children don't have that full time nurturing.
Children do, as the professionals say, adjust better at certain ages, but it's still an adjustment, and when any disruption happens for a child, it's still remembered and ingrained in some part of how they view relationships of all kinds.
Anyway, I could go on and on with this subject, but I think I'm getting away from the original questions of Ilana's.
I guess the important thing that I can see, is to know myself well enough, at all stages of my life, so I can rule on what my heart is saying.
Verbally showing pure emotions, can be a hazard when the wrong person is facing them.
When I play the piano, this is when my purest emotions are shown, without words - thankfully!.
Quote: :
Thanks KathyS.
However, traditionally, people marry when they are quite young.
Do you think it is possible to 'know yourself' in your late teens or twenties?
Is the same person who is able to look after several children well the same person who can fulfil herself in a career?
One of the problems I see with modern marriage is that, because we now live so much longer, we have several phases in our lives where we are, to all intents and purposes, different people with different needs and passions.
Quote: :
Choisya, I've bashed my head against the wall since this discussion started I think the bottom line to entering any relationship is knowing yourself.
Without true knowledge of who you are, and what you want out of life, you'll never really find, either with your own seeking, or arranged marriage;
Or with any other kind of relationships, what it is you are looking for----
Love for anyone, as I've said, can hit you like a ton of bricks, or just cascade into your life;
Finding out that half of the time you never know what fell in your path.
It can simply happen.
My love has such incredible tension and passion, I fight myself to hold those feelings back, even on this board.
But it never fails, I've shown these passions on this board, to my chagrin, and I wish I could stop it, believe me, but I can't.
Like now, playing that music I felt last night simply blindsides me!
I can't stop it, I'm floating still, it moves me so, to the point I'm compelled to speak about it.
It's what it is in my life.
If I ever thought of entering another committed relationship, that person would have to know and understand me, or have the same passions as I have.
This is what I've learned about myself.
Quote: :
As millions of people in the world are married by arrangement and have been for centuries, I doubt whether this method is any less successful than ours KathyS.
I had a Muslim lodger staying with me for 6 years (he worked here but went home to the Midlands at weekends) and his arranged marriage was very happy, as were those of many of his relatives whom I met.
He said that he and his wife were compatible from the beginning but 'love came later'.
In good Asian families a lot of care is taken by the parents and 'elders' in choosing partners for compatability etc.
And they are given several choices.
Here is an article about the TV programme:-
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490647&in_page_id=1770
Perhaps because, as you say, our heart rules our head and gut in so many instances, that is a good case for an arranged marriage or something more rational at least.
From the 60s (to get back to Ilana's theme) a great deal of emphasis has been put upon sexual compatibility and trying your partner out before marriage.
But given the higher rate of divorce, can this now be said to be a good way to choose?
I tried my first husband out before marriage (!) and when I look back on it I am pleased I did because I think that encountering sex as a virgin is quite frightening and might not be a very good start to a marriage.
I also think it might account for quite a lot of 'dysfunction' afterwards.
Perhaps Ilana has seen some research results on this?
Quote: :
Choisya, interesting thoughts, these arranged marriages.
I've wondered how successful they are.
I still think back, on occasions such as these, to what it was that attracted me to my husband.
It's been so many years, and all I knew was, I fell in love with him the first night I met him....was it his smell?
I don't know. Was it his innocent nature he projected to me, revealing that mother instinct that may be in us women to seek in our male partners...he did smell good, though!
Before marriage, as time went by, the gut started to take over the head, and the head started to take over the heart, but the heart ruled in my case, and, again, I should have stayed with the gut and head, to reveal what it was I should have been looking for, but, love is the incredible ruler in transforming that young mind into something that becomes irreversible in these situations....
I long to go back and do it all over again...but, with gut/head instinct this time, I don't think it prevails, most of the time.
I loved my husband with every ounce of my being, but, in the end, it wasn't enough to just want love, it was the passion that separated us, the realities that can't be seen through this fog It's a comprehension that is hard to understand, and make sense of, most of the time when the heart beats faster than the mind can comprehend
Quote: :
Great posts both KathyS and Jim.
I was interested in Jim's choice of quoting from the Kama Sutra because when arranging marriages Asians pay attention to the character of both the parties and take into account things like a 'passionate nature'.
The Kama Sutra is widely read in Asia and is often given to prospective brides by their mothers as a form a sex education.
In the UK we have a series running on TV at the moment where an Asian marriage arranger is sorting out partners, using her methods, for English girls and so far she has been quite successful.
She does not exactly get anyone to smell shirts but she certainly goes into a lot of background detail about the prospective partners themselves and their parents and families.
However, the expectation in Asia sems to be that the prospective bride should be docile and, of course, a virgin.
A dove would attract a higher bride price than a mare!
Message Edited by KathyS on 01-12-2008 12:20 AM Message Edited by KathyS on 01-12-2008 02:15 AM
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Quote: : these arranged marriages.
I've wondered how successful they are.
It's hard to know, because in the time of arranged marriages there was no divorce option, so we don't know how many of the couples would have broken up if they had had the choice.
And we don't know how many of the marriages today which break up into divorce would have been successful if there had been no option of divorce and the couples had been forced to make the decision to make their marriages work or lead a permanently unhappy life.
Nor is it possible to judge to what extent a devout faith in a religion which incessantly preached the sanctity of marriage would have had in making people committed to making their marriages work as opposed to the contemporary secular view that you deserve to be made happy by life, not that you have the obligation to make yourself happy with life, and that if you aren't happy all you need to do is changes something -- your hairstyle, your job, your spouse...
But my reading of history suggests that in the Western world, which is where most of my reading has been, arranged marriages were at least as successful as contemporary romantically-based marriages are.
There are plenty of instances of unhappy arranged marriages, but also plenty of instances of very happy ones.
Give that over half of all US marriages end in divorce, can we say that our present system is better?
Maybe you can; I can't.
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Quote: : I've bashed my head against the wall since this discussion started I think the bottom line to entering any relationship is knowing yourself.
Plato would certainly agree with that.
But while the bottom line to entering any relationship may be knowing yourself, I think that the bottom line to having a happy marriage is the commitment to work at making it successful.
Love, it has been said, I believe wisely, is that condition which endures when another person's happiness is essential to your own.
If ind too many spouses thinking that the act of marrying somebody should in and of itself make them happy for the rest of their live.
Balderdash.
I go back to Fiddler on the Roof and Tevya's question to his wife (of an arranged marriage of two people who met fir the first time on their wedding day) "do you love me?"
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Quote: : There is the dilemma of having children, and working at a career.
I've split myself on this subject, also.
I think children need full time parenting, by one or the other parent.
Let me put a word in for the non-mobile society.
My mother and and father in law provided full time child care while my wife and I worked;
My wife and I are providing full time child care for our grandchildren while our daughters and their husbands work.
Grandparents are every bit as good, IMO, as full time at-home parents.
I fact, I would argue that they are better, for several reasons.
First, the children additional adults to bond with, which is good for them.
Second, the grandparents can bring and share the experiences of raising children themselves, and can offer advice (as long as is truly advice and not orders!) as to what in their experience worked and didn't work.
Third, many stay-at-home parents feel isolated from teh adult workl and feel the lack of adult contact.
It is, I think, good for young adults to be out in the world, using their skills and minds and keeping themselves active and engaged.
Of course, there are many aspects to this.
The parents and grandparents have to get along and have sufficiently similar values that the parents feel it is of value to the children to spend plenty of time with the grandparents.
Not all parents feel this way!
(I have friends who won't let their parents NEAR their children!) Second, the work that the parent does must be something that they find a certain fulfillment in doing;
If the option were staying home or working all day on a chicken-packing assembly line, I would probably feel differently.
But I think our society suffers from being as mobile as it is, so that parents and children are often hundreds or thousands of miles apart, and have lives that only intersect on rare occasions.
Grandparent care isn't possible for everyone, and isn't desirable for everyone either.
But in the right cases, I think it can be even better than stay-at-home parenting.
P.S.
I notice that we have moved (and I have certainly helped move!) this discussion away from the original topic of female sexual dysfunction.
Pretty clever way to avoid a topic that may perhaps be unpleasant for some of us to discuss!
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Quote: : P.S. I notice that we have moved (and I have certainly helped move!) this discussion away from the original topic of female sexual dysfunction.
Pretty clever way to avoid a topic that may perhaps be unpleasant for some of us to discuss!
Yes, I noticed the subtle sliding off this topic
Mr.
Gutsy declines to address this topic?
K.
Message Edited by KathyS on 01-12-2008 04:31 PM
The tiger leapt, and the swallow dipped her wings in dark pools on the other side of the world.
The Waves
V.
Woolf
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Quote: : Mr. Gutsy declines to address this topic?
Mr.
Gutsy said in his first post in this thread that he wasn't even thinking about touching that topic.
With all the estrogen running around this board, testosterone knows full when when to duck and cover.
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I know, Mr. Gutsy, but I thought you may have changed your mind.
I'm not sure what you may be ducking, or covering, unless you had planned to tell all of us estrogen supplemented [or otherwise] women that it's all our fault you may be having trouble finding your testosterone I wouldn't touch this subject with a ten foot pole, either, but I was in the mood to fill up more board space.
I saw a white page, and it called my name "Kathy....
KATHY! Write something that isn't meaningless drivel!!" Well, I got semi-close
Tonight I'm painfully writing an article about "communication"....how to talk people in politics, within our local community, or otherwise, drive me up the wall!
Getting people to talk to each other;
Here it's bad enough, but in person, these people want to yell at each other!
Nobody listens to anyone, facts are contorted and it's always to hear the echo of their own voice, spitting out distorted truths....Yikes!
Now there's a soap box I could climb up on and sit for a while!
Now I have be,,,,and write something,,,,nice.
You're excused from this jury, for now!
K.
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Hi everyone. Thanks for being here and talking sex and arranged marriage when I was gone.
I was in Philly, at the American Library Association conference.
What a hoot. 15,000 librarians in one conference center.
I've never been in one room with so many book lovers.
What joy. Yay booklovers.
Anyone a librarian out there?
Come,
say hi.
...about statistics and arranged marriages: I'm not sure.
As Choisya says, it would be terrific to find some good research on arranged marriages.
As Everyman says, the research is hard to come by.
I have a couple of friends in arranged marriages (from traditional Indian families) and they seem darn happy.
But...who knows?
There have, though, been good studies on the relationship between an increased range of choices and happiness.
When we have too many choices for things, we tend to get nervous about the choices we make.
When we're forced to accept a single option, the brain often undergoes "cognitive dissonance," in which we form justifications for the route we (had to) take.
I.e.
Without any options, we often resign ourselves to what we have, which brings a mild peace.
When we have too many options, we fret more.
Don' know.
Just home.
Enjoying home.
Hi!
Ilana
Check out my book, here and visit my website, here.
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